Author Topic: Which way to go, X10 or X10感ro?  (Read 10431 times)

Old Tele man

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Which way to go, X10 or X10感ro?
« on: November 07, 2013, 06:49:41 PM »
I am contemplating a dual-mode wireless-&-X10 system consisting of: (1) a wall-mounted, three button, switch plate; (2) a plug-in wireless-to-X10 transceiver; and (3) two in-wall, wired-in, responder modules. The question, however, is *which way* is best to go, X10 or X10感ro?

From the information that I have found so far, my two options are:

X10 system: SS13A Wall Plate ($13.99); TM751 Transceiver Module w/built-in Appliance Module ($19.99); XPFM Wire-in Fixture Module ($26.99)

X10感ro System: PHW04D Wall Plate ($18.99); PAT01 Transceiver Module ($34.99); XPFM Wire-in Fixture Module ($26.99)

Because I can substitute the built-in Appliance Module function of the TM751 for one of the XPFM wire-in modules, the basic X10 system will cost roughly $61. The X10感ro system, however, will cost 77% more...about $108. Are the X10感ro products truly WORTH this price difference?

I welcome all comments, suggestions, recommendations, and caveats and warnings!
...and the Devil said "...yes, but it's a DRY heat!"

Jeff

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Re: Which way to go, X10 or X10感ro?
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2013, 09:38:26 PM »
I believe the PAT01 is equivalent to the X10 RR501 and not the TM751.  The RR501 is superior to the TM751 because it will respond to powerline commands.  It also includes a "polite" transmitter that will not step on X10 activity already on the powerline.

There have also been reports that the new TM751 no longer includes a built-in appliance module.  So that is also something to consider.

Otherwise, it is generally understood that the X10 and equivalent X10 Pro devices are functionally identical.  Supposedly the Pro devices are tested better than the standard units.

BTW, the relay in the RR501 also makes the loud KLACK when it switches.

Jeff
X10 automation since the BSR days...

Brian H

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Re: Which way to go, X10 or X10感ro?
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2013, 03:20:24 AM »
The X10Pro line has a longer warranty and is reported to be tested more thoroughly. I don't think the new owners X10Pro-USA have changed the warranty from two years for X10Pro and ninety days for X10.

PAT01 is the same as the X10 RR501 as Jeff reported.
It has a switch on it to set the Unit Code to either 1 or 9. The TM751 is hard coded to Unit Code 1 only.

As for the TM751. There was period when X10WTI eliminated the internal relay and hard wired the output to the line. So it was always On and called a pass through output.  Then added it back shortly before it went out of business and X10Pro-USA took them over.
Memory here. TM751C had the relay added back.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 03:35:53 AM by Brian H »

Old Tele man

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Re: Which way to go, X10 or X10感ro?
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2013, 03:37:15 PM »
Thanks, guys, you're filling-in the gaps in my dusty X10 knowledge.

The only difference that I knew was the TM751 had the built-in appliance module and the TM751-A didn't...which begs the follow-on question, what are the differences between the TM751-B and TM751-C modules? Sounds like the TM751-C is just TM751 again.

I only need ON/OFF control, but, since we're using Cree LED's, I *believe* relay-control (rather than SCR-control & dimming) is required.

The X10 components that I already have & use are:

1) Radio Shack Plug'n Power, Remote Control Center, Cat. No. 61-2677.
2) BSR X10-014511, Lamp Module (brown), 2-pin.
3) BSR X10-014611, Appliance Module (brown), 3-pin.
4) X10感ro Mini Timer, Model PHT04 (white).
5) X10感ro Model PAM02, Appliance Module (white), 3-pin.

We redecorated our front room and switched from two floor-lamps to three wall-mounted lamp fixtures, hence the need to turn all three lamps ON/OFF simultaneously, as well as, selectively turn OFF any one or two of the lamps as needed.

One wall lamp is currently hardwired through an existing 110VAC wall switch (which COULD be converted to X10 control) while the other two wall lamps are manually turned ON/OFF by plugging/unplugging their power cords (ugh).

My plan is to have X10 functions: All ON/OFF, individual ON/OFF. The question is *how* best to accomplish this without turning it into an "Electronic Rube Goldberg" lash-up in the process!
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 06:04:34 PM by Old Tele man »
...and the Devil said "...yes, but it's a DRY heat!"

Brian H

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Re: Which way to go, X10 or X10感ro?
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2013, 03:48:14 PM »
I have seen some independent X10 dealers call the latest TM751 with the appliance output a TM751C. While others just showed two TM751 models. One was marked pass through outlet and the other higher cost one new with controlled output.

Just had one more thought on the RR501 and TM751. The TM751 has no power line receiver in it. So your 61-2677 and PHT04 will not be able to turn it On and Off. The RR501 has a power line receiver and can be controlled by your power line controllers.

Are the Cree LED bulbs you have. The ones from Home Depot that are dimmable. If so the newer true white one or the earlier ones?
I have tested the earlier Crees from Home Depot with a few different hardware revision LM465 Lamp Modules and maybe able to find my notes.

« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 04:22:53 PM by Brian H »

Brian H

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Re: Which way to go, X10 or X10感ro?
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2013, 04:04:17 PM »
Can't comment on your BSR modules as they are before my time.
I do know that the X10 appliance modules do not respond to an All Lights On but do to an all Units Off.

Old Tele man

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Re: Which way to go, X10 or X10感ro?
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2013, 07:51:02 PM »
After reading (and re-reading) your comments, I'll throw some X10 stuff up against to wall to see what "sticks" and what doesn't.

Reiterating the basic requirements: (1) ALL ON illuminates all three LED lamps; (2) ALL OFF extinguishes all three LED lamps; (3) once ON, any one or two of the lamps can be commanded OFF; (3) there is NO dimming of lamps, just ON/OFF.

After rereading the X10 device descriptions on The Home Automation Store website, here's my NEW hardware line-up (subject to functional capabilities--will they do what I WANT them to do?):

WS467 Wall Switch (responds to ALL ON/OFF commands?); replaces existing 110VAC wall lamp switch; permits X10 control of LED lamp #1.
SS13A RF Wall Switch (sends: ALL ON/OFF command and individual ON/OFF commands to transceiver)...or...PHW04D?
RR501 Remote Module (receives RF & converts to X10; has built-in Appliance Module function)...or...TM751 (built-in Appliance Module function doesn't respond to ALL ON command, only to the ALL UNIT OFF)...or...PAT01 (no Applicance Module function)? Use AM function to control LED lamp #2 (or: use separate X10 AM module?, or second XPFM?).
XPFM wire-in X10 Responder; controls LED lamp #3.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 07:59:18 PM by Old Tele man »
...and the Devil said "...yes, but it's a DRY heat!"

Brian H

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Re: Which way to go, X10 or X10感ro?
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2013, 04:37:11 AM »
Tried Dimmable LED Bulbs in some tests. Cree 9.5 Watt 60 watt equivalent 2700K and a Phillips 12.5 EnduraLED 60 watt equivalent. Also a 40 watt incandescent.

The WS467 is for incandescent type loads only as it steals power through the bulb. As shown on The Home Automation Stores web page. A few dimmable LED bulbs may work but stealing power through the load would greatly reduce any models that would work.

I am listing the Date Codes for the modules I used for tests. As newer or older hardware revisions maybe different and X10 never gave details on what they changed.

WS467 Date Code 02D16:
All Lights On Yes.
All Lights Off Yes. {All Lights Off is a rarely used X10 command and not found on many X10 controllers}
All Units Off Yes.
Incandescent worked. Cree LED worked. Phillips did not work.

WS12A Date Code 02K45
All Lights On Yes.
All Lights Off Yes.
All Units Off Yes.
Incandescent worked. Cree worked. Phillips did not work.

XPFM Date Code 05A05.
All Lights On Yes.
All Lights Off Yes.
All Units Off Yes.
Incandescent worked. Cree worked. Phillips worked.

The PAT01 and RR501 should have the exact same specifications.  One is the X10 version and the other the X10Pro version.
Both do RF and Power Line control of the internal appliance module type output. Along with Unit Code Choice of one or nine.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2013, 01:43:07 PM by Brian H »

Brian H

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Re: Which way to go, X10 or X10感ro?
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2013, 06:18:38 AM »
Tested an RR501 Date Code 10G28.
RF and Power Line All Lights On No.
RF and Power Line All Lights Off No.
RF and Power Line All Units Off Yes.

Tested a TM751 Date Code 10E19. Has no power line receiver in it.
RF only All Lights On No.
RF only All Lights Off No.
RF only All Units Off Yes.

Old Tele man

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Re: Which way to go, X10 or X10感ro?
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2013, 05:45:39 PM »
Wow, you have done some VERY thorough testing there! Thanks!

We are using Cree 9W LED, 800 Lumen/60W-equivalent, 5000 K lamps purchased from Home Depot...and we only operate them ON/OFF, no dimming.

Referring to your component tests, the RF-to-X10 transceiver (TM751/RR501) might NOT be THE "sticking point," because the REAL problem seems to be in the stick-on Wall Transmitter device (SS13A or PHW04D), as neither seem to have the ALL lamps ON/OFF function, just three individual lamp ON/OFF buttons and a fourth DIMMING button...which we would never use.

So, on a *whim* I visited the INSTEON website and looked for X10-compatable devices, and found a dual-band device (#2487S) which purports to have:

(1) 110VAC ON/OFF switch load control;
(2) ALL lamps ON button;
(3) ALL lamps OFF button;
(4) Lamp-A button;
(5) Lamp-B button;
(6) Lamp-C button;
(7) Lamp-D button.

My concern here, however, is the metaphoric *mixing" of INSTEON apples with X10 oranges...almost always troublesome in my experience. Has anybody here had any experience (success/failure/problems) with doing this?

Like I mentioned above, my intent is to AVOID creating a kludged-up "Rube Goldberg Lash-up" just to turn ON/OFF three family room lights!
« Last Edit: November 10, 2013, 08:22:37 PM by Old Tele man »
...and the Devil said "...yes, but it's a DRY heat!"

Brian H

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Re: Which way to go, X10 or X10感ro?
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2013, 05:02:06 AM »
Few points on Insteon Devices.
They all need a Line and Neutral power wire in the electrical box to work. Many switch locations have a switch loop with no Neutral connection.

You may want to look at the X10Pro XPT wired in X10 controller. It does not have a load control in it and only sends commands to other X10 devices.
It has assorted faceplate's for varied functions.
One faceplate has three On Off Buttons and an All On All Off Button set.

I have posted separately some tests I did with an older 2486D Six Button KeypadLinc Dimmer.

Brian H

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Re: Which way to go, X10 or X10感ro?
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2013, 05:04:06 AM »
I don't think the Main On and Off Buttons on a KeypadLinc will send an X10 All Units Off and X10 All Lights On.
They only control the load connected to the KeypadLinc.

This is a signal capture with a power line only 2486D six button dimmer style.
Hardware version 1.4 and Firmware version v.29.
Buttons A-D are toggle mode. Sends an On when pushed then an Off the next time pushed. LEDs in buttons brighten when On.
Main Load Buttons. The On button always sends an X10 On and the Off Button always sends an X10 Off.

I programmed the buttons to the following addresses.
A Button is A1
B Button is B1
C Button is C1
D Button is D1.
Main On Off button set M1.

Started with Button A and last buttons tested where the Main On and Off ones.
R: A1 - 7:12:26 AM 11/11/2013
R: AOn - 7:12:26 AM 11/11/2013
R: A1 - 7:12:31 AM 11/11/2013
R: AOff - 7:12:32 AM 11/11/2013
R: B1 - 7:12:35 AM 11/11/2013
R: BOn - 7:12:35 AM 11/11/2013
R: B1 - 7:12:37 AM 11/11/2013
R: BOff - 7:12:38 AM 11/11/2013
R: C1 - 7:12:40 AM 11/11/2013
R: COn - 7:12:41 AM 11/11/2013
R: C1 - 7:12:44 AM 11/11/2013
R: COff - 7:12:44 AM 11/11/2013
R: D1 - 7:12:47 AM 11/11/2013
R: DOn - 7:12:47 AM 11/11/2013
R: D1 - 7:12:50 AM 11/11/2013
R: DOff - 7:12:50 AM 11/11/2013
R: M1 - 7:12:56 AM 11/11/2013
R: MOn - 7:12:57 AM 11/11/2013
R: M1 - 7:13:01 AM 11/11/2013
R: MOff - 7:13:02 AM 11/11/2013

Reset 2486D and programed A-D again but no X10 programing of the Main On and Off Buttons.
R: A1 - 7:24:03 AM 11/11/2013
R: AOn - 7:24:03 AM 11/11/2013
R: A1 - 7:24:05 AM 11/11/2013
R: AOff - 7:24:06 AM 11/11/2013
R: B1 - 7:24:09 AM 11/11/2013
R: BOn - 7:24:09 AM 11/11/2013
R: B1 - 7:24:11 AM 11/11/2013
R: BOff - 7:24:12 AM 11/11/2013
R: C1 - 7:24:14 AM 11/11/2013
R: COn - 7:24:14 AM 11/11/2013
R: C1 - 7:24:17 AM 11/11/2013
R: COff - 7:24:17 AM 11/11/2013
R: D1 - 7:24:20 AM 11/11/2013
R: DOn - 7:24:20 AM 11/11/2013
R: D1 - 7:24:23 AM 11/11/2013
R: DOff - 7:24:23 AM 11/11/2013
Pushed the Main On and Off buttons here. No X10 signals sent.

I am going to try a later revision 2486D and see if newer hardware or firmware changed anything.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 05:45:43 AM by Brian H »

Brian H

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Re: Which way to go, X10 or X10感ro?
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2013, 06:11:36 AM »
2486D Hardware v5.7 Firmware BB {firmware for Developers Group I2CS tests}.

Button A A1
Button B B1
Button C C1
Button D D1.
Main Buttons M1

R: A1 - 8:56:11 AM 11/11/2013
R: AOn - 8:56:12 AM 11/11/2013
R: A1 - 8:56:15 AM 11/11/2013
R: AOff - 8:56:16 AM 11/11/2013
R: B1 - 8:56:19 AM 11/11/2013
R: BOn - 8:56:20 AM 11/11/2013
R: B1 - 8:56:22 AM 11/11/2013
R: BOff - 8:56:23 AM 11/11/2013
R: C1 - 8:56:25 AM 11/11/2013
R: COn - 8:56:26 AM 11/11/2013
R: C1 - 8:56:29 AM 11/11/2013
R: COff - 8:56:30 AM 11/11/2013
R: D1 - 8:56:32 AM 11/11/2013
R: DOn - 8:56:33 AM 11/11/2013
R: D1 - 8:56:35 AM 11/11/2013
R: DOff - 8:56:36 AM 11/11/2013
R: M1 - 8:56:38 AM 11/11/2013
R: MOn - 8:56:39 AM 11/11/2013
R: M1 - 8:56:41 AM 11/11/2013
R: MOff - 8:56:42 AM 11/11/2013

Buttons A-D programmed Main Buttons not programmed.
R: A1 - 8:59:19 AM 11/11/2013
R: AOn - 8:59:20 AM 11/11/2013
R: A1 - 8:59:21 AM 11/11/2013
R: AOff - 8:59:22 AM 11/11/2013
R: B1 - 8:59:24 AM 11/11/2013
R: BOn - 8:59:25 AM 11/11/2013
R: B1 - 8:59:27 AM 11/11/2013
R: BOff - 8:59:27 AM 11/11/2013
R: C1 - 8:59:29 AM 11/11/2013
R: COn - 8:59:30 AM 11/11/2013
R: C1 - 8:59:31 AM 11/11/2013
R: COff - 8:59:32 AM 11/11/2013
R: D1 - 8:59:34 AM 11/11/2013
R: DOn - 8:59:35 AM 11/11/2013
R: D1 - 8:59:37 AM 11/11/2013
R: DOff - 8:59:37 AM 11/11/2013
Main On Off buttons no commands sent.

All buttons on a B address.
Main Button B1
A Button B2
B Button B3
C Button B4
D Button B5

R: B1 - 9:03:06 AM 11/11/2013
R: BOn - 9:03:06 AM 11/11/2013
R: B1 - 9:03:08 AM 11/11/2013
R: BOff - 9:03:09 AM 11/11/2013
R: B2 - 9:03:11 AM 11/11/2013
R: BOn - 9:03:12 AM 11/11/2013
R: B2 - 9:03:15 AM 11/11/2013
R: BOff - 9:03:16 AM 11/11/2013
R: B3 - 9:03:18 AM 11/11/2013
R: BOn - 9:03:19 AM 11/11/2013
R: B3 - 9:03:21 AM 11/11/2013
R: BOff - 9:03:21 AM 11/11/2013
R: B4 - 9:03:24 AM 11/11/2013
R: BOn - 9:03:25 AM 11/11/2013
R: B4 - 9:03:27 AM 11/11/2013
R: BOff - 9:03:27 AM 11/11/2013
R: B5 - 9:03:30 AM 11/11/2013
R: BOn - 9:03:30 AM 11/11/2013
R: B5 - 9:03:33 AM 11/11/2013
R: BOff - 9:03:34 AM 11/11/2013
R: B1 - 9:03:38 AM 11/11/2013
R: BOn - 9:03:39 AM 11/11/2013
R: B1 - 9:03:42 AM 11/11/2013
R: BOff - 9:03:42 AM 11/11/2013
Main Buttons still only send the address programmed into them.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 11:51:16 AM by Brian H »

Old Tele man

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Re: Which way to go, X10 or X10感ro?
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2013, 01:58:32 PM »
Few points on Insteon Devices.
They all need a Line and Neutral power wire in the electrical box to work. Many switch locations have a switch loop with no Neutral connection.

That seems to be my situation, a switch loop with no apparent Neutral wire, ie: just a black "Hot" wire coming IN and the "switched" black wire going OUT to the lamp. So, now, I'm wondering *where* the heck the white Return wire at the lamp comes from?

I looked into that X10感ro XPT controller and see that it's actually a back assembly (controller) mated with a front-switch plate having different numbers of switches & functions(?). My initial thoughts are that this device seems MORE appropriate to new house design instead of retro-fitting into an older home, but it DOES seem to provide MOST of the funtions I want. But, I have some confusion over which switchplate does want.

I believe the needed switchplate is the XP4A, 4 button, 3 addresss ON/OFF, all lights ON/all units OFF model...but none of the pictures show any difference in the 4 button labels, so which of the identically marked buttons is the ALL ON/units OFF button--top or bottom? Also, the XPT4 Version A controller is "New Style" -- what does that mean?

...and, of course, I'll need to locate that white Return line!
« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 02:52:06 PM by Old Tele man »
...and the Devil said "...yes, but it's a DRY heat!"

Brian H

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Re: Which way to go, X10 or X10感ro?
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2013, 03:49:20 PM »
The XPT was redesigned at one point in its life.
The base unit and face plates from the original design work together and so do the base unit and face plates of the new design work together. You can't mix an old style part with a new style part.

If you have a switch loop. Most likely the neutral for that light is in the fixture itself.

 

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