JVDE X10 Forum

General Discussion => X10 General Topics => Topic started by: bkenobi on November 20, 2013, 01:57:52 PM

Title: Non-X10 toggle switches
Post by: bkenobi on November 20, 2013, 01:57:52 PM
I've noticed that all of the buildings at my work have timer based lights so after 5pm they automatically turn off at least half the fixtures.  In some buildings, these switches look like two white over/under buttons.  In others, they look very similar to a standard toggle switch except they sit in the middle and you toggle them up/down.

The second type intrigues me because they are multi-way switches that come in multiple colors (including ivory/almond) and they are controllable by some kind of timer.  Does anyone know what these might be?  I have to believe they are some expensive units, but I' was wondering what corporations rely on for perfect operation?  Obviously, I can't open the cover to find any markings and the switch itself is not marked such that I've been able to see.
Title: Re: Non-X10 toggle switches
Post by: NJSailor on November 24, 2013, 11:00:03 AM
There probably dozens of possibilities but here are two (one dimmer and one relay for fluorescents, etc.:
http://www.smarthome.com/2466DW/ToggleLinc-Dimmer-INSTEON-Remote-Control-Dimmer-Switch-White/p.aspx
http://www.smarthome.com/2466SW/ToggleLinc-Relay-INSTEON-Remote-Control-On-Off-Switch-Non-Dimming-White/p.aspx

These are very nice (but expensive) switches that are Insteon and X10 compatible. They can be controlled by an X10 timer, AHP, etc., but what I like about them is that they also transmits an X10 (and probably Insteon) code when manually activated so can be used as part of a multi switch system or to control other devices.

Smarthome used to have an X10 only version that was half the price but unfortunately it was discontinued.

Graham
Title: Re: Non-X10 toggle switches
Post by: Brian H on November 24, 2013, 11:30:00 AM
Some of the latest Insteon modules are dropping X10 support.
I have also seen a report of a SwitchLinc Relay not accepting an X10 address even though the sale pages still said it would.
Title: Re: Non-X10 toggle switches
Post by: bkenobi on November 24, 2013, 11:38:41 AM
Do you guys really think those switches are x10 or insteon?  They are certainly a non-dimming type, but I was expecting to hear about a different technology entirely.  I guess the alternative might involve running extra control wires to some kind of logic controller.
Title: Re: Non-X10 toggle switches
Post by: dave w on November 24, 2013, 02:37:08 PM
Do you guys really think those switches are x10 or insteon? 
I doubt any industrial building would use Insteon, or X10 in todays world (in the 1980's - maybe, but not today). Did you check industrial lighting sites like Lutron, Cooper Industries, ILC, etc. for similar switches. Or is there a facilities manager? they should know who makes the system. My two cents is, it is probably a cat5 hardwired system.
Title: Re: Non-X10 toggle switches
Post by: NJSailor on November 24, 2013, 02:42:07 PM
Brian,
Thanks for the heads up. I was just going to order six more but now I better do some checking first.
Graham

Some of the latest Insteon modules are dropping X10 support.
I have also seen a report of a SwitchLinc Relay not accepting an X10 address even though the sale pages still said it would.
Title: Re: Non-X10 toggle switches
Post by: Brian H on November 24, 2013, 03:13:07 PM
The original user who started the post. Said they where going to call Smarthome support but never gave us the answer they got.

I will see if I can find the exact message.
I believe this is the one I was thinking about.
http://www.smarthome.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13942&SearchTerms=X10

Side note. Getting close to the holidays. Many years Smarthome has a one or two day 20% off sale.  ;D
Title: Re: Non-X10 toggle switches
Post by: Brian H on November 30, 2013, 03:29:24 AM
The 20% off Black Friday sale on all Insteon Modules except the three just released modules. Is in effect.
I believe it is extended through the weekend.
Title: Re: Non-X10 toggle switches
Post by: NJSailor on November 30, 2013, 06:13:20 PM
I couldn't resist the Black Friday sale and the possibility that X10 may be dropped from additional devices in the future.
Smarthome told me that the 2466 switches (Togglelinc) still support X10. The Insteon website says that most still do. For switches this means the ToggleLinc for now and the Dual Band switches (2477)
It appears that the switch mention on Brian's link (2476) has been discontinued. It was a single Band version.

Once I get these switches I will confirm the X10 status.

Graham
Title: Re: Non-X10 toggle switches
Post by: Brian H on December 01, 2013, 04:13:42 AM
Will be waiting for you findings.
One small point that use to be shown on the sales web pages. The Dual Band Switchlincs are bigger and if you had cramped electrical boxes. It was possible the older power line only ones would fit and the Dual Bands didn't.
Title: Re: Non-X10 toggle switches
Post by: NJSailor on December 07, 2013, 01:36:12 PM
Brian, your caution about size is well worth knowing. I checked the dimensions of all the switches (Insteon and X10) and was surprised by the variation. Fortunately I have deep boxes complete with Neutrals so it is not an issue with me.

I received the Insteon 2466DW (ToggleLinc Dimmer) switches and can confirm that SW version 6.2 (looks like mfg date of week 35 2013) still provide all the X10 support as shown in the manual. They accepted their X10 address immediately and worked with no problem, including the programming of start up brightness and ramp time.

I have run into one problem that is probably more X10 related but that is only when the switch functions as a slave switch. My XTBM is currently on its way back to me after Jeff upgraded it to the PRO model so I will provide an update when I understand exactly what is going on. The problem relates to the local dimming at a slave module. There is no problem with slave on-off so I can live with this if I cannot figure a work around.

Graham
Title: Re: Non-X10 toggle switches
Post by: Brian H on December 07, 2013, 03:10:13 PM
Thank you for the added information.
Will be waiting for your findings on the slave switch.

You do know that Smarthome chose an alternate dim command for X10.
They send a single %dim command when dimmed or brightened. Other Insteon Modules with an optional X10 address and the Smarthome line of X10 switched. Do understand the %dim. X10 switches do not. Though when turned on full they send an X10 On and turned Off send an X10 Off command.

They will not accept an Extended X10 command used for brightening and dimming a Soft Start defined device in AHP, but should use the old full On then dim down string of X10 dim commands.
Title: Re: Non-X10 toggle switches
Post by: NJSailor on December 07, 2013, 03:52:50 PM
Thank you, I did not know that and you have probably saved me from a wild goose chase.

Are you aware of any documentation of the Insteon X10 implementation that might be available?

Fortunately I am dealing with all the same Insteon switches here. It appeared that the slaves were not sending or the master was not receiving what I assumed were the string of X10 dim commands. Now I will have to rethink my hypothesis... but after I get my XTBM. USPS said it would be delivered yesterday so I hope to get it Mon or Tue at the latest.
Graham
Title: Re: Non-X10 toggle switches
Post by: Brian H on December 07, 2013, 03:55:00 PM
Smarthome X10WS467DI {2466D ToggleLinc Dimmer in disguise}.
Programed to B1 Address.

Smarthome 1132CU with Smarthome Essentials Software.

Advance Controller function. Receiving commands from the ToggleLinc Dimmer.

Turn On.
R: B1 - 6:39:26 PM 12/7/2013
R: BOn - 6:39:26 PM 12/7/2013
Turn Off
R: B1 - 6:39:29 PM 12/7/2013
R: BOff - 6:39:30 PM 12/7/2013
Brighten from Off.
R: B1 - 6:39:35 PM 12/7/2013
R: 42% Preset Dim 6:39:36 PM 12/7/2013
R: B1 - 6:39:40 PM 12/7/2013
R: 55% Preset Dim 6:39:40 PM 12/7/2013
Dim Down.
R: B1 - 6:39:44 PM 12/7/2013
R: 29% Preset Dim 6:39:44 PM 12/7/2013
R: B1 - 6:39:46 PM 12/7/2013
R: 19% Preset Dim 6:39:47 PM 12/7/2013
Turn Off.
R: B1 - 6:39:48 PM 12/7/2013
R: BOff - 6:39:49 PM 12/7/2013
Title: Re: Non-X10 toggle switches
Post by: Brian H on December 07, 2013, 04:19:28 PM
Smarthome X10WS467DI {2466D ToggleLinc Dimmer in disguise}.

Got out my XTBM and monitored the signals when dimmed and brightened.

It showed random "I" Insteon messages detected or noise detected as the paddle was held Up or Down.
I guess it was sending an Insteon Dim or Brighten with paddle activation.
Then when I released the toggle paddle a random Capitol Letter xx PDim. Along with a signal level voltage reading.
Example Dxx PDim.





Title: Re: Non-X10 toggle switches
Post by: NJSailor on December 07, 2013, 09:32:16 PM
Brian,

I really appreciate the effort you have gone to. I've seen the help you have provided many places around the net, and I really do appreciate all you do.

Your XTBM information is rather interesting. Here is what is happening here currently without the benefit of any diagnostic data.

Set up includes 4 ToggleLinc Dimmers all set to X10 Address (I think C12). One, I will call the master is connected to the load, the others have no load connection. All are on the same circuit.

The X10 is being controlled remotely by RF transmitters to an RR501 on a different circuit and a CM15A on another circuit. I have an XTB-IIR at the panel and my XTBM usually shows little to no noise.

The RR501 and the CM15A both do ON-OFF's properly. The ON turns on the lights to the preset level I programmed in the Master ToggleLinc.
Dimming works correctly from the RF devices. I do not have a PC hooked up to my CM15A so I have not tried dimming from that device. When I get my XTBM back, I will also hook up ActiveHome Pro and at least have the activity log for some more information. The RR501 is just sending a string of standard DIM's so no surprise that it is OK. I am guessing that ActiveHome Pro will not be so kind unless I redefine the switches some way to stop it sending the extended dim command.

Locally, the master ToggleLinc operates the lights as expected ON OFF, and Dim and Brighten.

The slave Toggle Lincs (3) will turn the lights on and off. On is to a preset brightness, however, I am not sure if this is the setting in the master settings or from my attempt to program the slave switches.

None of the slave switches will dim or brighten the lights correctly. When the toggle is help up (or down) nothing happens. If I toggle it a few times, the lights do change but in one or two large steps and at random, including getting brighter or dimmer regardless of whether I was toggling up or down. All slaves behave the same way. This is what has me confused because it is the X10 communication between the Insteon Switches that seems to be the problem.

I have a couple of ideas of how I am going to try to isolate this once I get my XTBM. First, I want to try to substitute a new switch that I will program with a load attached so that I do not run into the same programming issues. I am sure that I do not have three bad switches and one good one, so this is just to isolate the programming difficulty I had because I was unable to control the brightness at the slave switches when programming and that is required for the preset as well as the ramp time.
It will also help me confirm or refute my only theory and that is that all the Insteon switches are not transmitting the X10 dim commands in a way that they can understand. By using a new switch, I will also be able to determine whether the problem is a result of my programming efforts or a software problem in the switch. My suspicion is the latter because other than setting the X10 address, I had done nothing before I first encountered the dimming problem.

As an aside, do you know if the slave switches use their own programmed parameters for the ramp time and initial dim level? I was hoping that they would use those of the master switch since it is connected to the load, but I know that when I first installed them, their ON was at full bright.

Rereading your XTBM results, I had another thought. Is it possible to link the switches as Insteon devices without needing a controller? Only the master needs an X10 address if I could link the slave switches as Insteon.

Graham
Title: Re: Non-X10 toggle switches
Post by: Brian H on December 08, 2013, 03:33:22 AM
I maybe off base here. I believe the %dim is sent when the toggle is returned to center.
If they where cross linked for Insteon. I believe the Master would dim and brighten as the slaves where activated.

Your best bet. Is wait for your XTBM to arrive and see what is being sent.
I only have one ToggleLinc Dimmer and it sends the %Dim when the paddle is released.
On old Icon Dimmer Switch also sends the %Dim.

While a new Dual Band SwtchLinc Dimmer sends a stream of X10 Bright or X10 Dim commands as the paddle is held and did control the ToggleLinc's load with smooth dimming and brightening.
Title: Re: Non-X10 toggle switches
Post by: Brian H on December 23, 2013, 12:04:34 PM
I just saw a post on the Smarthome Forums.
All the ToggleLincs are discontinued and when the present stock is gone. There will be no more avilable.